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	<title>Comments on: Spoiler Warning</title>
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	<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186</link>
	<description>Light + Glass Studio Blog</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 07:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Hud</title>
		<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186#comment-1101</link>
		<dc:creator>Hud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vindaugagallery.com/index.php/archives/186#comment-1101</guid>
		<description>Man, I am with you on this, mostly. The DC universe has always been much more about good/bad, right/wrong dichotomy whereas Marvel has always been much more about the action. When I was a kid I tended to like the DC comics better, I think precisely because the good guys were good. But as I grew up I found that I liked the characters with more depth. That is, the good guys who are just good, they have to work at it.

Good guys rarely have ethical dilemmas, they always know right from wrong. The only time they do have a dilemma is when its between two goods or two bads. In Superman 1, Supes had to choose between saving the west coast and saving Lois, his dilemma. I think this gets boring and unrealistic after a while. And it goes back much farther than comics, the Lone Ranger was exactly this kind of hero. Its actually one of the things that John Ford and Sam Peckinpah did for westerns, they brought in the anti-hero. Clint Eastwood turned this into a career. But don't take that as some kind of indictment; I love the issues raised in these later westerns. I could talk for hours about them.

But back to comics. I can think of only one DC comic that I actually collected, with the exception of Batman and of those it was mostly The Dark Knight Returns series. Why? I think its because he constantly struggled between the good and the bad; somtimes doing good by being bad and sometimes doing bad by being good. Marvel Characters were always much better at that. The one DC that I collected was Green Lantern (Hal Jordan). To be honest, I still like the concept of this character, his power comes externally from the ring, but its usefulness is limited to his imagination and his strength of will. That is a really neat part of the character, a strong will. Ignore for a moment that, philosophically, I am relatively uncertain what the hell a "will" is, Hal Jordan was a super heroe because of the strength of this will, the ring just made it possible for him to fly. I bet you could write a series of stories with Hal as a heroe but without the super part. Like a true "what if Guy had gotten the ring" story (maybe they already have, I stopped reading before Hal went insane and became a force of nature).

But, for all that I liked Hal, he never had the interesting dichotomy of Silver Surfer or Namor. Namor especially went back and forth from being a good guy and being a bad guy. I want them to make the movie with him so badly and I am so afraid that they are going to completely and utterly screw him up.

It is the struggle that I think is interesting; the drive for good but the lure towards bad. Marvel has just been better at that, I think. Granted there are folks more well versed on comics than I who might be able to point out all the ways that I have overlooked stuff.

Some addendum stuff: 1. This issue is why I like the new Spiderman movies so much, I think Raimi really understands the heroe problem; it may be corny but the "with great power comes great responsibility" line was taken seriously in the creation of those movies. 2. Its why I have never gotten into comics like The Punisher and Ghostrider. Those characters are about vengence, the issue of right and wrong and the roles we need to play in order to achieve justice are never really an issue. Someone has done wrong, now wrong will be visited upon them. I think its more boring than guys who always know what is right.

So, in closing, I think I completely agree with you except that I think characters like superman are too one dimensional. So, in a sense, I don't agree with you at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, I am with you on this, mostly. The DC universe has always been much more about good/bad, right/wrong dichotomy whereas Marvel has always been much more about the action. When I was a kid I tended to like the DC comics better, I think precisely because the good guys were good. But as I grew up I found that I liked the characters with more depth. That is, the good guys who are just good, they have to work at it.</p>
<p>Good guys rarely have ethical dilemmas, they always know right from wrong. The only time they do have a dilemma is when its between two goods or two bads. In Superman 1, Supes had to choose between saving the west coast and saving Lois, his dilemma. I think this gets boring and unrealistic after a while. And it goes back much farther than comics, the Lone Ranger was exactly this kind of hero. Its actually one of the things that John Ford and Sam Peckinpah did for westerns, they brought in the anti-hero. Clint Eastwood turned this into a career. But don&#8217;t take that as some kind of indictment; I love the issues raised in these later westerns. I could talk for hours about them.</p>
<p>But back to comics. I can think of only one DC comic that I actually collected, with the exception of Batman and of those it was mostly The Dark Knight Returns series. Why? I think its because he constantly struggled between the good and the bad; somtimes doing good by being bad and sometimes doing bad by being good. Marvel Characters were always much better at that. The one DC that I collected was Green Lantern (Hal Jordan). To be honest, I still like the concept of this character, his power comes externally from the ring, but its usefulness is limited to his imagination and his strength of will. That is a really neat part of the character, a strong will. Ignore for a moment that, philosophically, I am relatively uncertain what the hell a &#8220;will&#8221; is, Hal Jordan was a super heroe because of the strength of this will, the ring just made it possible for him to fly. I bet you could write a series of stories with Hal as a heroe but without the super part. Like a true &#8220;what if Guy had gotten the ring&#8221; story (maybe they already have, I stopped reading before Hal went insane and became a force of nature).</p>
<p>But, for all that I liked Hal, he never had the interesting dichotomy of Silver Surfer or Namor. Namor especially went back and forth from being a good guy and being a bad guy. I want them to make the movie with him so badly and I am so afraid that they are going to completely and utterly screw him up.</p>
<p>It is the struggle that I think is interesting; the drive for good but the lure towards bad. Marvel has just been better at that, I think. Granted there are folks more well versed on comics than I who might be able to point out all the ways that I have overlooked stuff.</p>
<p>Some addendum stuff: 1. This issue is why I like the new Spiderman movies so much, I think Raimi really understands the heroe problem; it may be corny but the &#8220;with great power comes great responsibility&#8221; line was taken seriously in the creation of those movies. 2. Its why I have never gotten into comics like The Punisher and Ghostrider. Those characters are about vengence, the issue of right and wrong and the roles we need to play in order to achieve justice are never really an issue. Someone has done wrong, now wrong will be visited upon them. I think its more boring than guys who always know what is right.</p>
<p>So, in closing, I think I completely agree with you except that I think characters like superman are too one dimensional. So, in a sense, I don&#8217;t agree with you at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186#comment-1100</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vindaugagallery.com/index.php/archives/186#comment-1100</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man%27s_powers_and_equipment#Spider-sense" rel="nofollow"&gt;Spider-Sense&lt;/a&gt;

OK, I'll shut up now.

And no, I cannot spell "perifireal".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man%27s_powers_and_equipment#Spider-sense" rel="nofollow">Spider-Sense</a></p>
<p>OK, I&#8217;ll shut up now.</p>
<p>And no, I cannot spell &#8220;perifireal&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186#comment-1099</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vindaugagallery.com/index.php/archives/186#comment-1099</guid>
		<description>Oh, and what the hell is that crap about Superman getting stabbed?? WTF? I know it was Kryptonite, but that's just stupid. If you are gonna do that, then at least make it a new color of Kryptonite. Maybe he can be stabbed with silver Kryptonite or black Kryptonite, but green Kryptonite doesn't work like that. I know when they make a movie from a comic they take certain liberties with the character and the storyline, but seriously...Kryptonite is pretty well understood by most people. It's similar to radiation that only affects people from Krypton...it makes them weak and sick and in large doses could kill them. It does not make them suddenly vulnerable to stabbings. Maybe over a long period of time it might weaken him to a point that you could stab him, but not the way they did it in this case. Jesus, read some comics before you make the movie!!!

And speaking of needing to read some comics:

&lt;a href="http://www.chron.com/apps/comics/showComick.mpl?date=20060819&#38;name=Spiderman" rel="nofollow"&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; Spider-Man comic strip has a problem. Can you spot it? It's not the fact that he is so much shorter than everyone else...not that his costume's webbing is a little off...not that the perspective in each of the panels is nigh-on redonkulous. No. It's the fact that a 7 foot, 350lb giant chauffeur just snuck up on Spider-Man and knocked him out cold with a lead pipe! Hello?! What the fuck happened to Spider-sense?! Or his ears and perifireal vision? God almighty! You could've had Stevie Wonder in that Spider-Man costume and he would've known Col. Mustard was "sneaking" up behind him!! I mean, the whole point of "Spider-sense" is that you can't sneak up on him. He knows when branches are about to fall from trees or when someone is going to wreck their bike...and he can't hear the linebacker comin with the pipe? That's sad. It's even more sad that I'm so pissed about it. Bleh.

Damn, now my geek-sense is tingling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and what the hell is that crap about Superman getting stabbed?? WTF? I know it was Kryptonite, but that&#8217;s just stupid. If you are gonna do that, then at least make it a new color of Kryptonite. Maybe he can be stabbed with silver Kryptonite or black Kryptonite, but green Kryptonite doesn&#8217;t work like that. I know when they make a movie from a comic they take certain liberties with the character and the storyline, but seriously&#8230;Kryptonite is pretty well understood by most people. It&#8217;s similar to radiation that only affects people from Krypton&#8230;it makes them weak and sick and in large doses could kill them. It does not make them suddenly vulnerable to stabbings. Maybe over a long period of time it might weaken him to a point that you could stab him, but not the way they did it in this case. Jesus, read some comics before you make the movie!!!</p>
<p>And speaking of needing to read some comics:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chron.com/apps/comics/showComick.mpl?date=20060819&amp;name=Spiderman" rel="nofollow">This</a> Spider-Man comic strip has a problem. Can you spot it? It&#8217;s not the fact that he is so much shorter than everyone else&#8230;not that his costume&#8217;s webbing is a little off&#8230;not that the perspective in each of the panels is nigh-on redonkulous. No. It&#8217;s the fact that a 7 foot, 350lb giant chauffeur just snuck up on Spider-Man and knocked him out cold with a lead pipe! Hello?! What the fuck happened to Spider-sense?! Or his ears and perifireal vision? God almighty! You could&#8217;ve had Stevie Wonder in that Spider-Man costume and he would&#8217;ve known Col. Mustard was &#8220;sneaking&#8221; up behind him!! I mean, the whole point of &#8220;Spider-sense&#8221; is that you can&#8217;t sneak up on him. He knows when branches are about to fall from trees or when someone is going to wreck their bike&#8230;and he can&#8217;t hear the linebacker comin with the pipe? That&#8217;s sad. It&#8217;s even more sad that I&#8217;m so pissed about it. Bleh.</p>
<p>Damn, now my geek-sense is tingling.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186#comment-1098</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vindaugagallery.com/index.php/archives/186#comment-1098</guid>
		<description>I realized one of the main things that bugged me about the movie. They treated him like a Marvel character...and he is not. Marvel characters are more "realistic", in that they seem to be just like regular people with powers. Only Captain America seems to rise above all that, everybody else in the Marvel Universe is just chock full of faults and shortcomings. And, given the fact that this director is the same guy who directed the X-Men movies...well, a hero is a hero, right? No. DC Heroes are a completely different breed. A lot of the DC comics seem anachronistic at times because the heroes still hold that good guys don't do bad things. If you are a hero, that means more than just that you can break things or you have metal claws...in the DCU heroes are champions of good and protectors of the innocent. In the Marvel Universe, heroes fight. Sometimes they fight bad guys, sometimes they even fight good guys...a lot of times they just fight whoever they meet up with, including each other. That's one of the main reasons I liked Marvel comics when I was younger, there was always more action, but after a while I realized what I really liked were stories and characters who did more than just throw punches and smash buildings. Hence, Superman is a favorite of mine...along with Martian Manhunter, Batman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow. They are heroes. DC Heroes...and all that that implies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realized one of the main things that bugged me about the movie. They treated him like a Marvel character&#8230;and he is not. Marvel characters are more &#8220;realistic&#8221;, in that they seem to be just like regular people with powers. Only Captain America seems to rise above all that, everybody else in the Marvel Universe is just chock full of faults and shortcomings. And, given the fact that this director is the same guy who directed the X-Men movies&#8230;well, a hero is a hero, right? No. DC Heroes are a completely different breed. A lot of the DC comics seem anachronistic at times because the heroes still hold that good guys don&#8217;t do bad things. If you are a hero, that means more than just that you can break things or you have metal claws&#8230;in the DCU heroes are champions of good and protectors of the innocent. In the Marvel Universe, heroes fight. Sometimes they fight bad guys, sometimes they even fight good guys&#8230;a lot of times they just fight whoever they meet up with, including each other. That&#8217;s one of the main reasons I liked Marvel comics when I was younger, there was always more action, but after a while I realized what I really liked were stories and characters who did more than just throw punches and smash buildings. Hence, Superman is a favorite of mine&#8230;along with Martian Manhunter, Batman, Green Lantern, Green Arrow. They are heroes. DC Heroes&#8230;and all that that implies.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vindaugagallery.com/index.php/archives/186#comment-1097</guid>
		<description>Well, I think you argued very well why Superman Returns completely missed the entire mythos of Superman. I didn't see the movie and don't plan to, but I did read the book. It was only after I talked with Polly that I learned of the Superman's kid thing...they completely glossed over that in the book.

I totally agree with your analysis of Lois Lane...which is why I always preferred Lana Lang, she was in love with Clark and then later found out about the Superman connection. Lois was just an unattractive, aloof bitch who completely dismisses Clark and only gets off on the guy who can fly.

I didn't like the Superkid angle because that meant that Superman and Lois were having sex right up until he left for Krypton. And he just bailed? Superman? No "See ya later"? Nothing? Please. And I'm not sure I buy that he would sleep with her and not reveal that he was Clark. 

The effects look nice in the trailers, but I'm glad I didn't see it in the theaters. I think I'd rather watch the Justice League Unlimited TV show.

I always liked that Superman was the "boy scout." He was the unwavering good guy. He would play by the rules always and never tell a lie. Contrary to Batman who had no problem breaking certain rules, told lies now and then, but still had a strict moral code that he didn't violate.

It's like the writers decided to make him more real. "Nobody would act like that." Well, that's the point. He's better than normal people. He doesn't allow himself to do things like that. He holds himself to a higher standard than most. I mean, seriously, there's a huge Jesus allegory with Superman. Sent to Earth by his wise and powerful father to save mankind from itself...raised by surrogate parents...both man (Clark) and god (Supes) in one person...of the highest moral fiber...willing to sacrifice himself to save others. I mean, is that the kind of guy who is going to be chasing a married woman? (I agree that she is as good as married to Richard White.)

The book also had a big subplot about Mrs. Kent (the widow) being in a relationship with a guy from Smallville and planning to sell the farm and move to Montana...all of which is revealed to Superman the morning he returns to Earth. 

I don't know. I guess the guys making the films didn't really like Superman and wanted to change it all up. But, if that's how they felt then why not make a movie about a diff characater? What about Green Arrow? I'm sure he'd have no problem hitting on a married woman who he skipped out on years earlier...in fact, that sounds JUST LIKE a green arrow story. 

Bleh, I'm glad i didn't see it. And don't worry, you were 100% in the right on that one. I would expect nothing less from you than to argue to the end, and hopefully with large doses of condescending laughter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think you argued very well why Superman Returns completely missed the entire mythos of Superman. I didn&#8217;t see the movie and don&#8217;t plan to, but I did read the book. It was only after I talked with Polly that I learned of the Superman&#8217;s kid thing&#8230;they completely glossed over that in the book.</p>
<p>I totally agree with your analysis of Lois Lane&#8230;which is why I always preferred Lana Lang, she was in love with Clark and then later found out about the Superman connection. Lois was just an unattractive, aloof bitch who completely dismisses Clark and only gets off on the guy who can fly.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t like the Superkid angle because that meant that Superman and Lois were having sex right up until he left for Krypton. And he just bailed? Superman? No &#8220;See ya later&#8221;? Nothing? Please. And I&#8217;m not sure I buy that he would sleep with her and not reveal that he was Clark. </p>
<p>The effects look nice in the trailers, but I&#8217;m glad I didn&#8217;t see it in the theaters. I think I&#8217;d rather watch the Justice League Unlimited TV show.</p>
<p>I always liked that Superman was the &#8220;boy scout.&#8221; He was the unwavering good guy. He would play by the rules always and never tell a lie. Contrary to Batman who had no problem breaking certain rules, told lies now and then, but still had a strict moral code that he didn&#8217;t violate.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like the writers decided to make him more real. &#8220;Nobody would act like that.&#8221; Well, that&#8217;s the point. He&#8217;s better than normal people. He doesn&#8217;t allow himself to do things like that. He holds himself to a higher standard than most. I mean, seriously, there&#8217;s a huge Jesus allegory with Superman. Sent to Earth by his wise and powerful father to save mankind from itself&#8230;raised by surrogate parents&#8230;both man (Clark) and god (Supes) in one person&#8230;of the highest moral fiber&#8230;willing to sacrifice himself to save others. I mean, is that the kind of guy who is going to be chasing a married woman? (I agree that she is as good as married to Richard White.)</p>
<p>The book also had a big subplot about Mrs. Kent (the widow) being in a relationship with a guy from Smallville and planning to sell the farm and move to Montana&#8230;all of which is revealed to Superman the morning he returns to Earth. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know. I guess the guys making the films didn&#8217;t really like Superman and wanted to change it all up. But, if that&#8217;s how they felt then why not make a movie about a diff characater? What about Green Arrow? I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;d have no problem hitting on a married woman who he skipped out on years earlier&#8230;in fact, that sounds JUST LIKE a green arrow story. </p>
<p>Bleh, I&#8217;m glad i didn&#8217;t see it. And don&#8217;t worry, you were 100% in the right on that one. I would expect nothing less from you than to argue to the end, and hopefully with large doses of condescending laughter.</p>
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		<title>By: Wah</title>
		<link>http://www.vindaugagallery.com/archives/186#comment-1096</link>
		<dc:creator>Wah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vindaugagallery.com/index.php/archives/186#comment-1096</guid>
		<description>probably everyone who is going to read this has had an arguement with you at some point in the past.  I know I have, and I'm relatively certain that I have called you asshole as well.  That being said, you have tons of friends who you anger in arguement, but love you anyway.  So if so-called Bob dislikes you because of your moral high ground, or even you goat like stuborness, he just hasn't gotten to know you well enough yet.  Perhaps the situation doesn't call for an apology, maybe it is just a drunk arguement about superman, with lots of superlatives.  And despite your defending of your points in the superman arguement, how important is that stuff in terms of your interpersonal relationships . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>probably everyone who is going to read this has had an arguement with you at some point in the past.  I know I have, and I&#8217;m relatively certain that I have called you asshole as well.  That being said, you have tons of friends who you anger in arguement, but love you anyway.  So if so-called Bob dislikes you because of your moral high ground, or even you goat like stuborness, he just hasn&#8217;t gotten to know you well enough yet.  Perhaps the situation doesn&#8217;t call for an apology, maybe it is just a drunk arguement about superman, with lots of superlatives.  And despite your defending of your points in the superman arguement, how important is that stuff in terms of your interpersonal relationships . . .</p>
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